|
Post by trag on Mar 28, 2013 4:07:31 GMT 9.5
I've started receiving SPAM telling me I can save money on my electric bill, if only I'll respond to their email and pay them to install solar panels on my house or maybe buy their book about it.... ;D
|
|
|
Post by anonposter on Mar 28, 2013 8:09:57 GMT 9.5
I've seen spam here trying to get people to waste their money on solar, probably shouldn't be surprised that they'd be using e-mail as well (though I haven't received one yet).
|
|
|
Post by jagdish on Mar 28, 2013 14:52:02 GMT 9.5
|
|
|
Post by Roger Clifton on Mar 28, 2013 17:14:06 GMT 9.5
The article in Jagdish's link speaks of considerable demand in Uttar Pradesh for unstored solar power, where consumers use the power, when available, to top up the batteries in their devices. It does imply that the solar power is more expensive than diesel.
The article speaks of towns of 3000-4000 people, but does not say how many of Uttar Pradesh's two hundred million people are off the grid. It seems that solar will be profitable until the grid comes to them. Places made more remote by rivers and mountains will no doubt buy solar for longer.
|
|
|
Post by sod on Mar 28, 2013 18:12:09 GMT 9.5
|
|
|
Post by anonposter on Mar 29, 2013 12:47:32 GMT 9.5
As has been pointed out elsewhere he directly says that the only reason he saves money by getting the shiny things is because of government subsidies to renewable energy and a ban on new nuclear in California pushing up electricity prices. Nowhere with a sane energy policy would that be a way to save money.
|
|
|
Post by sod on Mar 29, 2013 21:50:44 GMT 9.5
]As has been pointed out elsewhere he directly says that the only reason he saves money by getting the shiny things is because of government subsidies to renewable energy and a ban on new nuclear in California pushing up electricity prices. Nowhere with a sane energy policy would that be a way to save money. you are ignoring the main message: a "sworn enemy" of solar power is building it on his roof (and without subsidies!) to SAVE money. Nuclear power is not a solution to the power problems in California, it IS one of the problems. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Onofre_Nuclear_Generating_Station#2012_shutdownDid you not wonder, why Walls without subsidies can be cheaper with the most expensive renewable technique (PV solar) than the grid, which gets those subsidies? Do you understand what it means, that he is cheaper and build those PV on his roof, being a "sworn enemy" of it? PS: I do know, that Anthony doesn t really oppose PV. He just doesn t like the climate hype and subsidies. I use the "sworn enemy" term because i couldn t find a short other one...
|
|
|
Post by anonposter on Mar 29, 2013 23:05:43 GMT 9.5
you are ignoring the main message: a "sworn enemy" of solar power is building it on his roof (and without subsidies!) to SAVE money. Because electricity costs where he is are extremely high due to renewable energy subsidies and lack of enough nuclear power. Nuclear power is not a solution to the power problems in California, it IS one of the problems. Then why do places with more nuclear power, say France, or Sweden, not have those problems? Could it be that it is really lack of nuclear power that's the problem? Losing one of their best power plants for a time period is never a good thing, even worse when their grid has so much crap attached to it. Did you not wonder, why Walls without subsidies can be cheaper with the most expensive renewable technique (PV solar) than the grid, which gets those subsidies? Would it make economic sense if California had France's electricity grid? Doubtful. Note also that California is an unusually good place for solar power along with having unusually expensive electricity, most of the planet is not like that. Do you understand what it means, that he is cheaper and build those PV on his roof, being a "sworn enemy" of it? I'd say it means California f***ed up their energy policy.
|
|
|
Post by edireland on Mar 29, 2013 23:05:50 GMT 9.5
.... His electricity price goes up to ~92 cents per kWh.
That is price gouging thanks to him being stupid enough to get a smart meter.
He brought it upon himself.
EDIT:
A petrol or non-road diesel powered generator would beat 92 cents kWh.
|
|
|
Post by sod on Mar 29, 2013 23:20:27 GMT 9.5
Note also that California is an unusually good place for solar power along with having unusually expensive electricity, most of the planet is not like that. You miss the point. At the top of this topic, several people, including you, made the claim that PV is a "Ripoff", is no use on a reliable grid, and all other sort of nonsense. It takes me a minute to give you a counter example, of solar PV saving money without subsidies. and your lame excuse? "they don t have enough nuclear power and it is very sunny there". How about a "sorry, looks like i was wrong"?
|
|
|
Post by edireland on Mar 30, 2013 0:00:19 GMT 9.5
We will correct the point.
"Solar is a rip-off except in a scenario where the price of electricity has been driven absurdly high by incredibly poor energy policy, using an electricity tariff designed to rip people off as the alternative energy source, in a location that is uniquely suited for solar power"
99.99999% of the time Solar is still a ripoff.
|
|
|
Post by Roger Clifton on Mar 30, 2013 15:56:34 GMT 9.5
... his electricity price goes up to ~92 cents per kWh ... (because of the) smart meter Telling the user when to cut back on power usage is when the smart meter is doing its job. If the smart meter is made smart enough, it would cut back for you -- switch off all the air-conditioning, close all the windows, draw the blinds, slam all the doors shut, deny re-entry to the children, drain all excess power (acquired when cheap) out of the car battery and sell it back into the grid. If the owner is smart enough he would have covered his home with solar panels, and be storing their output in one of these magic batteries that everyone is talking about but no one has seen. Then, when the price goes sky high, he sells their energy. I suspect that he would only make a net profit if those magic batteries are incredibly capacious, incredibly cheap, and only he has had the foresight to install them. It might be wise to wait until magic batteries begin to appear on the market before putting solar panels on the roof.
|
|
|
Post by edireland on Mar 31, 2013 0:59:27 GMT 9.5
The kind of world implied by smart meters is not one I want to live in.
The poor are forced to live their lives at different times to save money on lighting, heating and the like. Having to get up at 5am because they can't afford to put the kettle on to make tea at 7/8am because the price of electricity is so high.
Electricity is a public good and should be available on a pre defined pricing schedule (like Economy 7 is).
|
|
|
Post by Roger Clifton on Mar 31, 2013 10:31:52 GMT 9.5
Electricity is a public good and should be available on a pre defined pricing schedule (like Economy 7 is). Please explain "Economy 7" for us internationals. Our various jurisdictions may have similar implementations of a right to cheap power.
|
|
|
Post by edireland on Mar 31, 2013 12:00:27 GMT 9.5
Electricity is a public good and should be available on a pre defined pricing schedule (like Economy 7 is). Please explain "Economy 7" for us internationals. Our various jurisdictions may have similar implementations of a right to cheap power. Oops sorry. In the United Kingdom, you can choose to go onto either: 1. A flat rate tariff where you are charged a flat rate for each unit used 2. A two tier tariff with more expensive daytime electricity and cheaper nighttime electricity. There are variations on the second option, in some cases the times of some tariffs are entirely fixed whilst in others the meters are changed over by a digital command embedded into the Radio 4 Long-wave signal. However in the latter case there have to be at-least a set number of hours of "low price" electricity in each 24 hour period, and the prices are still fixed, you merely switch between them. Contrast this with a smart meter, where the price varies from one minute to the next and can jump to extreme values with little warning in certain circumstances. The term "Economy 7" comes from the fact that the scheme was originally developed such that you would receive seven hours of "low rate" electricity every night. This has led to it being fairly common to run things like washing machines and the like overnight using timer functions built into them.
|
|
|
Post by David B. Benson on Mar 31, 2013 13:48:31 GMT 9.5
Price varies at the scheduling interval rate in any so-called smart meter scheme. Around here that is once each 5 minutes but I am under the impression that 15 minute intervals are quite common.
Under such schemes the rate for the short time interval could just follow the wholesale rate. If so, once in a great while it could be as high as US$30,000/kWh for maybe 15 minutes. However, the rate setting scheme is entirely up to the utility rate commission. The commission could set an absolute upper limit for example.
|
|
|
Post by edireland on Mar 31, 2013 20:48:23 GMT 9.5
We don't have a "Utility rate commission" in the United Kingdom.
Any significant control of pricing was abandoned upon the privatisation of the Central Electricity Generating Board in the 80s.
|
|